Talk:Traits

From LiMaWiki

Some of these LA +1 traits seem faaaar too weak to be worth the pain of a +1 LA...

I mean, 4 feats is all well and good, but +2 to two ability scores - and only ones not already increased? If it's going to be worth +1 LA it should be at least +4 to two ability scores, and it should be stackable with current bonuses the race already has. Otherwise it's a total waste of XP as the other characters get HD, class features, saving throws, and skill points for their trouble. -Zyrusticae

+4? That's a bit much, don't you think? A +4 would allow an Orc to start with a 24 Strength, or an Elf to start with a 24 Dexterity, or a Minotaur to have a 30 Strength from the start.

I think a fair solution would be one or the other, either a +4 or a +2 that stacks with racial increases. If you are interested, you should check the original thread on the WotC forums to see if there was any discussion about this Trait. Seeing the reasoning behind their choice may help.

--Phil 08:11, May 11, 2007 (MST)

A 24 strength, quite frankly, isn't really that great; if it's point-buy, getting an 18 strength is an extremely costly endeavor. (And the odds of rolling an 18 with 4d6-drop-lowest is remarkably low.) And a +4 is actually just a +2 to all checks related to that attribute, and frankly, a +2 to damage and strength-based attack rolls, and some strength-based skills, isn't that great compared to getting HD, BAB, increased saves, and class features - all of which a character is forfeiting as soon as they take an ability that requires a +1 LA. That's not to mention that some races add bonuses to all attributes.

Could always go with something like... +4, the way it is now, except if the race has bonuses to everything, one can stack +2 on two of those bonuses. Or somethin' like that.

I'll go check out the thread, though, to see what the reasoning behind it was. -Zyrusticae

An 18 should be rare, that's why the cost scales or the odds of getting it when you roll are low. That's why a 24 strength is great. Sure a +4 means +2 modifiers. But consider that the modifiers from Strength are applied more often per game session than any other statistic. Sure it's only Attacks, Damage and a few skills. Attack and Damage are done throughout the game, while your Wis modifier to Spot happens occasionally. Compared to getting HD, BAB, Saves, and class features it may not look like much, but consider that it takes entire feat to get a +1 to just your strength based attacks. You also have to consider that you only get 1 bonus to your abilities every 4 levels. There aren't any other ways to increase your abilities, aside from magic items.

You have to consider that anything you release to the public should take into account the Core rules. Those rules assume that starting ability scores are balanced against either the 25 point Standard Point Buy or the Elite Array. In turn, the CR system is built on that fact, and the farther you deviate from those starting abilities, the less balanced seemingly appropriate encounters become.

If you take a look at the Terra Novos section, I have a long rant about players expecting super powered abilities. I think a +4 would be giving away something that would take 16 levels to do without magic items and 8 levels to do with a racial bonus.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm only defending the "sanctity" of the system here. Personally, I think any trait that gives a +1 LA isn't worth it. I'd rather have a full level, no matter how much you gave me. As you'll find though, I don't play any races in my games that require an LA either.

Anyhow, let me know what you find, if anything, in your hunt for info. And anyone else reading this, chime in! All opinions matter!

--Phil 15:36, May 11, 2007 (MST)

I very much disagree with this analysis of less paragon not being worth the LA, especially in the long haul. +2 to strength immediately beats out a warrior BAB and it surely beats out a rogue and mage BAB and it gives you +1 to several skills, and +1 to damage. +2 con in the long haul is better than the average of one hit die. +2 int is better than a class levels skill points in the long haul, especially for those with many int skills. +2 dex pumps your init, your AC, your to hit with ranged, and many skills -- to get this from feats its about the equivalent of 4 feats (dodge, weapon focus bow, skill boosting feats) if you are a dex based skill monkey. If you pump your con and another stat, you should be able to survive the low LA, and when you pay it off, I believe you have gained quite a bit. Pumping con, wis, dex is an immediate boost to your saves. I don't agree with bringing magic items into the analysis because not all campaigns are montey haul, nor do all DMs have generic magical item shops where you can purchase any stat boosting item you want even if you have all the gold. I'd think the worst case scenarios for the lesser paragon trait is for casters, but aside from that I think two stat pumps with no hits is quite decent. -- Divisionbyzer0 02:08, March 25, 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Official Traits

I am going to add the official Traits (and Flaws on the other page) to this listing, so that it may be complete. If anyone would like to help, I would appreciate it.

Also, if you know of any other official listings for Flaws and Traits, let me know!

--Phil 23:10, May 12, 2007 (MST)