Talk:Ultimate Gadgeteer

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Hey, CR here. I was looking over this and had two questions I thought I'd bring up that were a little more specific to the class. Firstly, is it possible to move the list for the Gadgeteer to the main page for the class? I'm not even sure how to go about things like that and I'm really wondering if that was possible. Secondly, I think the explination for what the gadgeteer seems...vague. That and the point system for the gadgets dosn't make that much sense. Does it mean that you can only have one gadget to that amount of points, or that you can keep making them? Does it use the basic crafting rules or is there more to it? Sorry if I sound completly new to this, but crafting wasn't anything I really tried before.Chaotic Redder

[edit] Utter Overhaul

The Gadgeteer has been on my mind for the last couple of weeks, more in particular the Invention (points) system, so I've set out to rewrite it. Some cracks have been taken at this style of system, by both homebrew and professional venues, but I never really found one that fit what I wanted. Really, fleshing out the Inventions system could mean another class for the Ultimates. The Gadgeteer, which would be a psionic/inventor hybrid, and then a full Invent progression class. I'd hope it could mean a fourth to the Ultimate triad of --Arcane/Divine/Psionic--.

So. No more points. No magic, just (hopefully simple) science. Arguably that is big turn from all of DnD but hey, this is the Ultimate system. I'm thinking a components system. The higher in level an inventor is, the more components he can choose from to create with. There are five movements of power gain where more components are unlocked. These are known as Phases.

The phase a component is listed under decides how long it takes to make, and also how much must be spent in Resources. I'm using 'Resources' both as the blanket and actual term (for simplicity where I can get it) for the parts an Inventor builds everything out of. Resources can be salvaged from vehicles, constructs, slag heaps, mines, or purchased from junk vendors. Resources can obviously weigh a lot, and components can take a while to make, so a base of operations would be needed for construction.

The general idea for what each phase signifies for the types of inventions:

Constructs

This is mainly straight-forward, each phase allows the building of robots, from tiny to huge. Also allows for the improvement of the construct's power supply, movement method, and 'A.I.' components.

Armor

Phase 1: Standard -yet customized- armor.

Phase 2/3/4: Light/Medium/Heavy Platforms. Platforms hold the armor components to the Invented armor, and allow them be removed relatively quickly to trade out large components. Light Platforms can be used with heavy armor, but Heavy Platforms cannot be mounted on light armor, etc. For examples of platform components see the armor gadgets section of my Technologist.

Phase 5: Full Platform. Think mech. A set of armor a size larger than its user, with its own weapons, HP, etc. Some parts (movement/power supply) interchangeable with later Construct components.

Weapons

Phase 1: Standard -yet customized- weapons. Yes, an invented light OR two-handed weapon at level one!

Phase 2: Energy weapons. Less complicated melee and ranged weapons that require power to operate.

Phase 3: Busters. Non-DnD-standard ranged ballistics and the type. Thing that can start doing high damage to constructs, buildings, vehicles.

Phase 4: Energy Busters. The high power, single character weapons of death. This is what the gadgeteer in the Ultimate picture is using.

Phase 5: Hypothetical weaponry. Rule benders the match of high level magic items, legacy weapons.

So. Thoughts? I know that this could add a lot of complication to someone who didn't want to deal with it, but the Ultimates system is all about expanding your options. --Traverse 14:30, December 16, 2007 (UTC)

Well, a while since I spoke up. The Overhaul is coming along nicely, but I'm beginning to think it may not be suited to the Ultimates, so I'm back to working on a remix of Gadgeteer. Changes include effective combat role and skills; psionics stay to keep it in Evolution but it becomes more of a weapon-based warlock/mech-marshal. The only problem with it is the inherent downtime due to inventing. I'll think about it.

Weapons will be shifted to only Energy Busters (see above) and should properly scale using the 40 points system. Armor becomes 'Suit' similar to the platforms but not built onto any armor (no armor for gadgeteers) and will only offer minor protection in trade for the quickly switchable suit gadgets. Constructs would work like on my old Technologist, which was just a natural evolution of the original.

Gadget Augmentations become 'Flash Augmentations', no-limit, low cost, augmentable psi-like abilities (always wondered why there wasn't a psionic 'Supernatural' ability classification). Powers list will change, and they get fewer powers and points. I'll update the class table now to show the initial changes. --Traverse 00:04, February 12, 2008 (UTC)

Edit: Initial stuff out of the way. I'll compare my Mech. Genius abilities to the original ones and see which ones should be changed or reworded, and start work on the new augments. After that I'll do the updates to the inventions themselves. (latest CAPTCHA was 'Mr Saigon', how fun) --Traverse 00:54, February 12, 2008 (UTC)

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Hello all. I would like to see if there could be one minor change to the class that we can agree on. First, the weapon inventions seem really bad at first, but what if the damage could be added at one point for the first d6 and three points for all following d6, and the same change to applying range. If you want to talk balance, it seems that a ranged weapon that does 1d6 damage at first level with no strength mod is fairly balanced. Fusecase 10:07, December 19, 2007

For my old personal revision I attempted to remedy the first level damage by having the weapon start with a damage die. However, even past that looking at the points system most of it seems somewhat backwards.

As with the melee weapon size. It starts as a light weapon, and costs 2 points to increase it's 'handedness' by one step. But why ever purchase a handedness increase? Say I was level 16. Why would I want a two-handed melee weapon that could do 8d6 per hit (and have reach and trip/sunder bonuses, why not?) when I could dual-wield two light weapons that do 8d6 per hit, have reach, a 10' throwing range, and can be used as trip/sunder/disarm weapons?

Even by wording each of these ability precisely so as to not make these crazed weapons it seems unwieldy. While rewording all of the choices for my revision they even started sounding boring. --Traverse 22:01, December 20, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Current Editing Discussion

78.88.77.239, if you're going to edit without logging in, at least list why you change what you do. The skills points I gave are supported by wizards being primary magic item crafters while only having 2 skill points per level. This is because their main stat is Int, as is the Gadgeteer's, so they have enough to devote to other skills and one or two crafting skills.

Understand that the Ultimate Classes use a different standard; all classes get a minimum of 4+Int skill points/level, regardless of their primary attributes. There are multiple reasons for this, but I'm sure you already know those. --Zyrusticae 01:38, February 15, 2008 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed, must slip my reading glasses on. Thank you for pointing that out. :) Though I think the anonymous editor was just messing with stats. --Traverse 02:08, February 15, 2008 (UTC)

Mostly SPAG (Spelling, Punctuation And Grammar) editing here. Additionally, I have added some simple auras for the Construct abilities, and I think that this works very nicely.

Thank you for your help. I also balance Gadgeteer's power points. Cheers, --SKRP 07:03, April 26, 2008 (UTC)

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Ok, A few comments. Add an option for a Buster to ignore 1 damage reduction for 2 points spent on his creation. So far it has no way to bypass DR. Also, buster should start out as a medium sized weapon, then add an upgrade that would allow the buster to qualify as a light weapon for the purpose of weapon finess and two-weapon fighting and an upgrade that would allow it count as a two handed weapon for the purpose of power attack as long as you hold it with both hands (or with one hand but do absolutely nothing with the other as you need to focus entirely on the strike but this addition is mainly for fluff), both upgrades should probably cost 3 points.

Also, add a Damage Reduction upgrade to the suit, 1 DR for every 3 points? Another upgrade that would be cool to have is an Extra Hand. It should probably cost quite a lot of IP but would give your suit an extra mechanical hand (think Doctor Octopus or Goblin Tinker from Warcraft 3) that could provide a bonus to grapple and climb checks and would deal 1d3 damage when used to attack but most fun is that it will be able to hold any item or weapon that you want, allowing you to make extra attacks if you add a buster to it. However you still take normal penalties as per two-weapon fighting or multi-weapon fighting. 07:03, April 26, 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Finishing the long unfinished.

Guess I'm gonna go back to 3.5 ultimates one more time. The gadgeteer's getting a bit dusty. :D Here's some demo pages, since I'm doing the base editing in Google Documents.

Gadgeteer | Busters | Suits | Constructs

I'll start pasting in the edits here once I finish up all of the gadget entries. Things that will be done after that: add more construct/platform design gadgets, post epic level gadgeteer rules, post special feat for a cohort style construct. I'll be looking for ideas for unique construct/platform styles. I'll also get some design notes up here for review purposes. --Traverse 06:26, January 17, 2009 (UTC)

I always wondered why no one had commented on the new way the gadgeteer worked above (other than the fact that no one like the gadgeteer :D), and then it struck me that google won't show those pages to anyone who isn't me. So, yeah. Gadgeteer is 95% done, as the epic gadgeteer is just a quick edit. Done enough so to be able to remove the star, in my eyes, and finally have a complete set of non-npc classes. I invite anyone who still plays 3.5 games to find an opportunity to take it out for a spin, as I have no more 3.5 games in which to playtest, unless I play some on my own.

The main theme of the gadgeteer is versatility. It's a psychic warlock, and I think about on par. The warlock can usually do things that the gadgeteer can a number of levels earlier, but the busy gadgeteer will always have defense fodder with his extra constructs. I believe that the initial complexity present in this class is removed, and should be much more approachable.

Also. In nearly all situations where I see gadgeteer style classes, a la inventors, they are always underpowered. I don't know why. Nearly everything they can invent is fluff, especially in combat. So, in comparison to those, this class will seem overpowered. This is mostly defeated by losing many item slots, if your gadgeteer uses suits, and putting the money gained by that into inventions that are far better than your standard faire. Remember that a gadgeteer will never be able to use all of these inventions at once. And, in general, the more they use, the more they are removed from the typical magic item play style. ﴾›◦_◦﴿›--Traverse 03:46, June 24, 2009 (UTC)